> Do you even expect students to come up with such
> things? > > Bob Hansen > > > On Sep 4, 2014, at 11:55 AM, "Richard Strausz" > <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > I have never had a student come up with AA. You need to read and choose to print the question from Wayne and my full answer to be able to answer the question above. Careless... Richard Richard 
On Sep 4, 2014, at 2:19 PM, Richard Strausz <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Do you even expect students to come up with such >> things? >> >> Bob Hansen >> >>> On Sep 4, 2014, at 11:55 AM, "Richard Strausz" >> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I have never had a student come up with AA. > > You need to read and choose to print the question from Wayne and my full answer to be able to answer the question above. Careless... No, that was exactly my question to you. Do you expect your students to deduce truths like AA on their own? When I teach I fully expect this and I teach in a way that fully expects this. You can tell by my development and examination, whether oral or written. I am not seeing that expectation in your postings, but you have withheld or have been deliberately vague on anything specific with regards to what you expect from your students. This is why I always ask for final exams from teachers claiming effectiveness in a teaching method. And the majority of the teachers oblige. Bob Hansen 
Robert, Additionally, looking at the content of a final exam cannot possibly give information on teaching methods, but rather the content being assessed..Reviewing assessment data is how I determine whether my lessons have been successful.Some other perspectives to consider: If I were to post my final exams online then my students could possibly find them. Most of the middle and high school teachers I have worked with also protect their final exams. I think in the old days many teachers locked them up in cabinets. I keep mine on my flash drive. Whether we think its appropriate or not  cheating occurs and responsible teachers safeguard their exams. Please stretch, take a deep breath and consider my post. No need to attack me with an insulting counter post. Ciao, Anna On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Robert Hansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

correction to "this data cannot be shared except with by student directly to their parents. " Edited it should have been written as "this data cannot be shared except by individual students directly to their parents" On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 1:04 AM, Anna Roys <[hidden email]> wrote:

In reply to this post by Anna Roys
On Sep 5, 2014, at 5:04 AM, Anna Roys <[hidden email]> wrote: > Robert, > > Some other perspectives to consider: > > If I were to post my final exams online then my students could possibly find them. Most of the middle and high school teachers I have worked with also protect their final exams. I think in the old days many teachers locked them up in cabinets. I keep mine on my flash drive. Whether we think its appropriate or not  cheating occurs and responsible teachers safeguard their exams. > > Additionally, looking at the content of a final exam cannot possibly give information on teaching methods, but rather the content being assessed..Reviewing assessment data is how I determine whether my lessons have been successful. Yes, the content. That was the point! You and Richard can’t make claims, in the presence of mathematically educated adults, that you are teaching mathematics and not provide any evidence of the mathematics you are teaching or the results you are getting. And this can be done and is being done everywhere without divulging confidential information. I have been on dozens of forums and this is not an issue. Teachers have gathered so many problems after a few years that they can readily supply actual or sample exams and problems that represent the mathematical skills and awareness they are teaching and expect from their students. Often I don’t even have to ask because the data is available on their website. And those same teachers are more than willing to talk to the results they achieve against those goals. It is the only way to truly ascertain what is being taught and what is being learned. Yes, I have considered this perspective. Everyone reading this discussion has at least a hint of this perspective. It occurs when the teacher is teaching something that they know a mathematically educated adult would never call mathematics. Sadly, these are the teachers that end up teaching the children of uneducated parents. These teachers have created another teaching universe filled with gobbledygook, the purpose of which is only to fuel their own esteem, not teach, and they dare not present themselves to the real teaching universe for fear of ridicule and loss of that self esteem. Your notion of “assessment” is nothing but a lie created by teachers like yourself to cover your intentions. If you don’t think people recognize that, you are fooling yourself. > As public school teachers we have codes of ethics that mandate that we maintain student confidentiality  it is not that we are hiding anything from trolllike list members such as yourself.. > > In my state, we as teachers have easy online access to standards based summative exam results by student for multiple years, as well as reporting comparing performance data to other students of the same grade level in each school, within our districts and also compared to other students of the same grade level in our state. In addition, part of our teachers' evaluation is based upon how our students perform in these standardized tests. However, due to confidentiality this data cannot be shared except with by student directly to their parents. Well then, either all of the teachers who readily share exams and expectations of their students are unethical, or, a much simpler explanation is that you and Richard are unethical. Do you really think anyone on this forum is being fooled with your legalese? We have been sharing exams and results for years on this forum without divulging confidential information. How can you even have a discussion of teaching without that? > Historically on this list, you have posted multiple contradictory statements and have often left your true positions on topics fuzzy.. I disagree with the idea that my true position on topics is left fuzzy. It may take several postings to hash it out and explain it, but the last thing I do is leave things open. I don’t think that is the issue here. I am calling you and Richard frauds! Isn’t that enough issue? I don’t expect to get any love for that, but I do expect readers to think and realize “You know, he has a point. With all of their talk, in the end, these two aren’t even teaching mathematics, and why do a large percentage of our classrooms devolve into that?” > In reading various threads, I have observed that I am not the only one here who has noticed this phenomenon. It seems that if anyone calls you on your fence jumping, it is your cue to start attacking other list members in an attempt to change the subject. Do you know the English words, "I was wrong?"or "I guess you have a good point there.” > I often tell my students that if they are not struggling and making mistakes and learning from them, then, they are not really working and learning, but rather just entertaining themselves. I believe that making mistakes and correcting them is an important part of the process of learning. Have you ever admitted that you were mistaken about anything? This is my original reply to Richard… http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9575992 I think I was perfectly clear and honest about which use case was pertinent and which were not. The next reply by Richard should have been “So you don’t think activity orientated software is pertinent?” Instead, he chose to play a word game. That tells us volumes about Richards interest in teaching. He has none. Do you think Richard learned anything from this? Do you think he understands better what software can and can’t do in the classroom? Do you think he is going to read all of this and connect it to teaching mathematics? Did you learn anything from this? The ultimate hypocrisy seems to be that while I will take everything learned here and apply it, you and Richard haven’t learned anything. Why? Because neither of you are interested in teaching mathematics to students. You are interested in a semblance of teaching that you find gratifying to yourselves. Your students can fail every mathematics exam ever devised and that wouldn't phase you the least. Because that isn’t why you teach. You teach for your own interests and seek environments in which to do so. Am I being too fuzzy? I really want this point to get across. You and Richard represent a crevice in mathematics education, mostly unique to this country, that parents must be aware of and fear for their children. If mathematics education has a hell, you and Richard are it. No up, no down, no right or wrong. Bob Hansen 
In reply to this post by Richard Strausz
> Am I being too fuzzy? I really want this point to get
> across. You and Richard represent a crevice in > mathematics education, mostly unique to this country, > that parents must be aware of and fear for their > children. If mathematics education has a hell, you > and Richard are it. No up, no down, no right or > wrong. > > Bob Hansen ...and so says the nonclassroom teacher to the people who do. It is kind of funny, eh, Anna? Richard 
On Sep 5, 2014, at 9:50 AM, Richard Strausz <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Am I being too fuzzy? I really want this point to get >> across. You and Richard represent a crevice in >> mathematics education, mostly unique to this country, >> that parents must be aware of and fear for their >> children. If mathematics education has a hell, you >> and Richard are it. No up, no down, no right or >> wrong. >> >> Bob Hansen > > ...and so says the nonclassroom teacher to the people who do. > > It is kind of funny, eh, Anna? It is a message to parents and certainly not meant to be funny. It is to highlight the bitter reality that some classrooms, due to many reasons, have become unbound from the principles of teaching mathematics altogether and how some teachers have taken that as an opportunity to pursue interests other than teaching. Be that an interest in computer games, making videos, or social justice. I didn’t say you created the hell. Just that you are part of it and that at the very least, there are things a parent can do so that their chidden do not end up in it. Bob Hansen 
In reply to this post by Richard Strausz
Richard Strausz wrote:
http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9582588 > Wayne, here is an example from geometry class last year. > Relatively early in the fall I had taught the students how > to do simple SketchPad constructions. As one exercise, > I had them make a random triangle, construct the midpoints > of all 3 sides and connect those midpoints. On the instructions > sheet, I asked them to grab a vertex to modify the original > triangle and watch what happened. I gave them space on the > paper to record up to 5 conjectures/observations. When we > compared notes later, I heard such things as: > there are 4 little triangles and they are all the same size. > each of the little triangles looks like a miniversion of > the big one. lots of angles looked to be the same size. > when the big triangle is a right triangle, the little ones > were, too. (no one used the word 'parallel' in last year's > group.) > > This proved to be a great reference as we got to relevant > topics in the course. For what it's worth, this seems to me to be a nice activity for for generating interest from (mostly) early level high school students, so I don't quite understand the negative reaction Wayne and Robert had to this. Specifically, you're teaching (I assume) mostly 9th and 10th grade students, many who probably won't even attend college, while Wayne is talking about a 400 level advanced undergraduate/beginning graduate level class. There is a huge difference between what's appropriate for these two situations. It might be a waste of time for Wayne's class (where I'd probably replace the activity with myself drawing two or three "random" triangles on the board, drawing in the segments, and then asking if anyone has an idea how we might prove what appears to always happen and let what follows be the activity), but I don't see it as a waste of time (20 min. max?) for your class. Incidentally, Wayne's "highlydirected leading questions" in http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9583332 are good, but I see this as something one does AFTER the class has gotten excited about how those 4 samesize little triangles always seem to show up. Dave L. Renfro 
In reply to this post by Richard Strausz
At 06:50 AM 9/5/2014, Richard Strausz wrote in response to Bob:
> > Am I being too fuzzy? I really want this point to get > > across. You and Richard represent a crevice in > > mathematics education, mostly unique to this country, > > that parents must be aware of and fear for their > > children. If mathematics education has a hell, you > > and Richard are it. No up, no down, no right or > > wrong. > > > > Bob Hansen > >...and so says the nonclassroom teacher to the people who do. > >It is kind of funny, eh, Anna? It would be funnier if it were not for all of the real children for whom their parents have no alternatives or naïve ignorance misguided industry religion. I know it will not come as any surprise  it will not come at all and that is the problem  but there is easily assessed genuine mathematical conceptual and computational competence that ties very strongly with upward mobility through education. Damning them may not be hell but it is hellish. Wayne 
In reply to this post by Dave L. Renfro
On Sep 5, 2014, at 5:41 PM, Dave L. Renfro <[hidden email]> wrote: > For what it's worth, this seems to me to be a nice activity for > for generating interest from (mostly) early level high school students, > so I don't quite understand the negative reaction Wayne and Robert > had to this. I won’t speak for Wayne, but I believe he is following the same path. I suggest it is BS because there is no worthwhile (mathematically derived and formulated) follow up. You might embed this activity at the beginning of a real high school geometry class and then go on to the *math*, but as of this moment, after a decade and more of Richard’s postings, by his current and previous aliases, he cannot or will not produce anything remotely resembling a math lesson or training that follows from this activity. Why? Because his interest is in using software in a mathematics class, not teaching a mathematics class. As far as he is concerned and understands it, the rest is just procedure and hand waving and this is his escape from teaching all of that to his students. Dan’s escape is making videos. Anna’s is to disappear into a cloud of gobbledygook and pretend we can’t see her. My criticism has always been the lack of mathematics and mathematical pedagogy. Not in this exercise particularly, but in the whole course generally. A deliberate avoidance of the essence and reason of the subject, with just semblances of it in its place, as if we wouldn’t notice. > Specifically, you're teaching (I assume) mostly > 9th and 10th grade students, many who probably won't even > attend college, What decade did you just wake up from? Everyone goes to college.:) Bob Hansen 
In reply to this post by Dave L. Renfro
Neither do I consider it inappropriate (and I do mean high school, not my
400level one quarter course where time is precious and this is only
briefly reviewed as the first step in proving the SAS Similarity Theorem)
but critical is your "20 min. max?". Recall his
original:
Wayne At 02:41 PM 9/5/2014, Dave L. Renfro wrote: Richard Strausz wrote: 
In reply to this post by Robert Hansen
RE RH wrote,"Anna’s is to disappear into a cloud of gobbledygook and pretend we can’t see her." This sentence sounds like " gobbledygook" with no meaning, however, I suspect you are attempting to insult me again. No matter how many insults you throw out, it does not change the fact that your posts are not consistent and often just blowing meaningless hot air because your are not informed. 
In reply to this post by Richard Strausz
Robert Hansen (RH) posted Sep 6, 2014 3:53 AM (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9586374):
> <snip> > > (Dave Renfro): Specifically, you're teaching (I > > assume) mostly > > 9th and 10th grade students, many who probably > > won't even attend college, > > (RN): What decade did you just wake up from? Everyone > goes to college.:) > > Bob Hansen > titled: "CollegeGoing Rates of High School Graduates  Directly from High School" (http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=32) The map indicates that about 63% of US school graduates go directly to college. I guess the word "everyone" in Robert Hansen's famous 'American' English means something different to Robert Hansen than it means to NCHEMS, dictionaries, etc. Of course, it needs a course of 'American' English poetry  which the people at NCHEMS evidently failed to pass  to figure out the subtleties underlying the 'wit and wisdom' of Robert Hansen's postings. GSC ("Still Shoveling! etc, etc") 
In reply to this post by Anna Roys
At 05:44 PM 9/5/2014, Anna Roys wrote:
> RE RH wrote,"Annaâs is to disappear into a > cloud of gobbledygook and pretend we canât see her." > >This sentence sounds like " gobbledygook" with >no meaning, however, I suspect you are attempting to insult me again. > >No matter how many insults you throw out, it >does not change the fact that your posts are not >consistent and often just blowing meaningless >hot air because your are not informed. > >You do not have enough information to make the >judgements against me or the other list members you mentioned above. Is it extrapolating beyond the data? Of course, although a reasonable conclusion (along with Richard's similar situation) from the refusal to present specific course content expectations and concrete examples of assessments thereof that no such exists. Content competence be damned, pedagogy uber alles. It is, of course, easy to disprove this conclusion and I continue to invite him, and now you, to do the same. Thanks in advance, Wayne 
Wayne, In an effort to better explain myself, so that you may understand the perspective I am coming from, I feel I need to present some background information. Personally, I have four adult sons; the two youngest completed their K12 studies entirely outside the traditional public education system with their high school years in a charter school designed for home schoolers. I drafted the charter application documents, recruited board members to approve the application, recruited students, wrote the grants and directed its startup in 2005  all without a degree in Education. (TwindlyBridge Charter School, Wasilla, Alaska)As a proud mother I feel compelled to tell you that my three eldest sons are college graduates; the eldest became a computer scientist, the second became a doctor and the third majored in Philosophy with a minor in Math and then continued on to recently earn a Master's in Research in Philosophy in England and lastly, my youngest, is a Senior in his Computer Science degree at the University of Alaska, Anchorage. Besides being proud of them, this gives evidence that home schooling and self directed learning can be powerful. However, I was not the one who taught them Mathematics, instead it was their father, a Mechanical Engineer with a Master's Degree from Purdue. I have never professed myself to be a Mathematician as my own formal college level Mathematics studies ended in a Calculus course in 1982. When my youngest son was in his high school years ,through the charter school mentioned above, I decided to return to college. I became certified by the State of Alaska and highly qualified under NCLB to teach in the public school system as follows: K8th core subjects (Math, Language Arts, Science & Social Studies) and high school English Literature & Composition, Social Studies and Biology Content. This is my fifth year as a certified teacher. I teach at a K12 charter school in Anchorage that is very similar to the one I mentioned above, in that its model is individualized where parents and teachers form a partnership in support of students' academic success. Parents may select any curriculum they want, however, we as certified teachers must approve it or require supplement materials, as we are bound by regulations that curriculum must meet standards. Anchorage School District has adopted Common Core standards, yet our state has instead created its own standards and has contracted with a university to build the Alaska Measures of Progress standardized assessments. I have been selected and serve as one of the reviewers for the 68 Language Arts assessments in preparation for its first test run this spring. Previously on this list I have attached the Alaska standards for both English/LA and Mathematics from which the university has built the assessment. I have attached them here again for easy access for those who may be interested. (Scroll down to bottom for Math) They seem to be very similar to the Common Core, but they are more rigorous than the previous Alaska Standards. I have attached the state regulations that apply to our school and others in our state which are classified and funded as correspondence schools. In these schools, after overhead is accounted for, each student is given a budget to fund curriculum, teacher time, as well as, service providers who have developed an approved business relationship with districts. Typically, teachers in our school do not start teaching small group classes until mid September, as we are all busy until this time of year meeting with parents and students developing their individualized academic plans for the year and orientating them with how our school works. We are still enrolling new students, but last student enrollment count I heard this week was 528. So, now with all of this background I will explain my plans for the small Math groups I will facilitate this year. Keep in mind that these small groups meet twice per week in person and the rest of the course takes place at home using online classrooms behind district firewalls in compliance with student confidentiality requirements, so I cannot link you in. Below I have listed the three Math courses and their respective curriculum and materials that will frame the studies in my Math courses for this school year.
Pearson, Prentice Hall Common Core Mathematics Course 1 ISBN:13 9780133196702 (Teacher's Edition) IXL http://www.ixl.com/ An (online practice problem system that does not give any instruction, just problems for students to solve. It does however, provide assessment data and reporting options for teacher analysis) Khan Academy
Big Ideas Common Core Curriculum by Ron Larson and Laurie Boswell ISBN: 97816088402311 (Teachers Edition) Khan Academy
Teaching Textbooks Algebra 1 ISBN: 0974903620 http://www.teachingtextbooks.com/v/vspfiles/tt/Algebra1.htm Supplementary material: Math Girls Talk About Equations & Graphs by Hiroshi Yuki ISBN: 9781939326225 Khan Academy My online classrooms point students to specific assignments in students' respective curriculum. Additionally Khan Academy and IXL will offer supporting resources and provide additional assessment data.. My online classroom system is hosted on Edmodo, which also keeps my grade book and has a quiz and exam building facility. I build by quizzes and exams using the curriculum materials that students are working with, giving similar problems to what is being covered in the curriculum. These quizzes and exams that I build are what I do not want to share online where my students could possibly find them. Above I have provided ISBN numbers and some links to the curriculum and materials I will be using this year. (but not limited to) I do not have the time to dig out, type in and properly cite all the content and assessments found within the published curricula, however, I do encourage you to research it yourself and provide me with feedback. Earlier this summer I posted up a lesson plan I was considering using or modifying on the Fibonacci sequence My starting point was http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/HSF/IF/ It was my review of Common Core standards that prompted me to deliver a
Fibonacci sequence lesson plan in the first place  not just some random
idea. My rationale behind this prior post was that I was looking for a new way to present it this year, because my assessment data from last year when I first introduced it to these same students indicated that the lesson was not successful  so I wanted to find a better way and reteach it this year. Sadly, what I got back from one list member when I asked the Mathematicians on this list for their input was an accusation that not only was the lesson plan just a coloring exercise, but that my struggling continuing students did not belong in Algebra studies  they should be down the hall instead of working towards being able to graduate because district graduation requirements mandate Algebra. Keep in mind students on IEPs have extra years to graduate, so that if the first attempt at Algebra fails, then they will retake the course. Some students just plain need more time, and/or a different approaches. We as teachers can only work with students where they are at in their achievement levels. I do not accept the idea that they should not graduate because they are not capable of learning Algebra as was suggested here on this list by one member. I think these students can learn at their own pace and may be helped using adaptive strategies that may use colored pencils or other unconventional methods. So, my well respected Mathematicians on this list, how would you personally teach and assess students on the Fibonacci sequence or otherwise work with students to meet the common core standard on the link http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/HSF/IF/ I do not belong to this list membership as a way to pump myself up or profess to be a Mathematician  I am reaching to what I thought were those with more Math expertise than I  to help me help my students . Additionally, I am entertained and interested when we discuss societal issues such as Math Education and its future. I apologize for the long post, but you were inquiring about details.... Ciao, Anna On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Wayne Bishop <[hidden email]> wrote: At 05:44 PM 9/5/2014, Anna Roys wrote: SecondaryStandardslistedinExcel.xlsx (156K) Download Attachment CorrespondenceRegs.pdf (157K) Download Attachment 
On Sep 6, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Anna Roys <[hidden email]> wrote: > I do not accept the idea that they should not graduate because they are not capable of learning Algebra as was suggested here on this list by one member. I don’t know who told you such a thing. Algebra should not be a requirement for graduation. The majority of professions don't even use it. This is why I so ardently support vocational classes and they should be as valuable to school as academic classes. I know they are valuable to students. Bob Hansen 
In reply to this post by Anna Roys
On Sep 6, 2014, at 6:36 PM, Anna Roys <[hidden email]> wrote: > Sadly, what I got back from one list member when I asked the Mathematicians on this list for their input was an accusation that not only was the lesson plan just a coloring exercise, but that my struggling continuing students did not belong in Algebra studies Fortunately, some states are starting to see how wrong this is and are opening up more paths. And every little bit I can help to point out the lunacy of coloring exercises in algebra classes helps me sleep that much better at night. Maybe you should have discussions with parents and be honest with them. I have found that works well. Bob Hansen 
In reply to this post by Anna Roys
Thanks, and not at all unreasonable in fact, quite respectable.
However, it is almost completely useless for classes of 30 students many
of whom are poorly prepared and have learned that their inappropriate
behavior will not be dealt with appropriately and their teacher may even
be admonished for not properly conducting the class. FAR more
structure is needed from Day 1 of kindergarten and as in your situation
academic content competence must be more important than received wisdom
pedagogy. Thanks again,
At 03:36 PM 9/6/2014, Anna Roys wrote: Wayne, 
In reply to this post by Robert Hansen
Robert, RE: The request I made in prior post "So, my well respected Mathematicians on this list, how would you personally teach and assess students on the Fibonacci sequence or otherwise work with students to meet the common core standard on the link http://www.corestandards.org/Math/Content/HSF/IF/ ..." Anna On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Anna Roys <[hidden email]> wrote:

In reply to this post by Bishop, Wayne
Wayne, RE your post, "However, it is almost completely useless for classes of 30 students many of whom are poorly prepared and have learned that their inappropriate behavior will not be dealt with appropriately and their teacher may even be admonished for not properly conducting the class." I agree. "FAR more structure is needed from Day 1 of kindergarten and – as in your situation – academic content competence must be more important than received wisdom pedagogy. " Please elaborate further on your meaning here. Thanks, Anna 
Free forum by Nabble  Edit this page 