Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

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Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Michael Paul Goldenberg
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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Robert Hansen

On Jan 12, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://bit.ly/XsO6wa


Sounds like they don't like the MAP test. Understandable since this is yet another test on top of all the state mandated testing.

I support them.

Bob Hansen
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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

GS Chandy
In reply to this post by Michael Paul Goldenberg
MPG posted  Jan 12, 2013 7:30 PM:
>
> http://bit.ly/XsO6wa
>
I'm certain that I (sitting 8000 or more miles away in India; living in totally a different situation)  don't fully understand many of the issues underlying 'testing' in US public school education and the grand mal furore around it.  

However, I did look at the link MPG had posted and quite carefully read through all of the report published in 'Seattle Education'.  There will be a lot there that is more meaningful for US stakeholders; but I was particularly struck by the following:
>
> The MAP test was purchased under corrupt crony-ist
> circumstances (Our former superintendent, while
> employed by Seattle Public Schools (SPS) sat on the
> corporation board of NWEA, the purveyor of the MAP
> test. This was undisclosed to her employer. The initial
> MAP test was purchased in a no-bid, non-competitive
> process.)
>
Now THAT sounds very familiar indeed.  It's much like something that often happens in India, whereby 'crony capital'-ists -  major bugbears of ours here in India - routinely loot TTTTTTThousands of MMMMMMMillions of rupees from the public exchequer, in disparate fields of endeavour.  

There have been HUGE scandals here (several still going on) relating to the selling at low costs of the nation's resources of coal-mining blocks to mining companies (and enabling them to evade environment protection laws); of allocating 'spectrum in the airwaves' to various phone and communication companies' under extremely dubious circumstances; and the like.  

Government Ministers and other bureaucrats from the one side along with Corporate Honchoes from the other have been jailed.  

Much else.

Now, on re-reading the entire document linked to by MPG (sometimes 'between the lines'), I found a lot that I DID understand in it!  I then went to the link provided in the Seattle Ballard High School teachers' document to a document showing the plaint made by teachers of the 'Garfield High School', and there I found, Lo! and Behold!:

>
> The MAP test was originally introduced by then
> superintendent Maria Goodloe-Johnson while she was a
> board member of the Northwest Evaluation Association,
> the company that sells the MAP.  When Dr. Goodloe-
> Johnson was fired, the MAP somehow survived the
> housecleaning.  We object to having to give a test
> whose existence in our district is the result of
> scandal.  
> (From http://seattleducation2010.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/the-letter-from-the-teachers-at-garfield-high-school-regarding-the-map-test/ )  
>
Both documents are well worth reading by genuine stakeholders in US education (who will doubtless better understand them and then know what to do about integrating appropriate action into what they will do with US education).

I wonder, Haim, does your trenchant call to
"PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!"
have anything to do with cases like these?  

Why do you shout ONLY against the 'Education Mafia'?  

Do private companies selling 'testing' constitute part of what you'd identify as the 'Education Mafia'?

Is it possible that teachers (possibly regular members of Teachers' Unions) are also, by such complaints as noted above, trying to do much good for US public school education - as seems evident from the above?

Is it appropriate that former 'superintendents of US public school education systems' take board positions in companies selling 'testing' to US public school education?  

Is it 'appropriate' that private companies take such people on their boards?  Is this kind of 'system within the system' something that deserves further inquiry?  

[This kind of behavior by private enterprise is something with implications that reach FAR beyond 'educational systems'].

Should not our systems regulate against this kind of behavior (without being accused of 'stifling private enterprise')?

Could any or all of the above be considered to constitute 'crony capitalism' (CC)?  

In your opinion, is CC good for US public school education?  For the USA as a whole?  Do you know of any CC going on in your US systems?

What about a whole lot of people and private companies that are looting public resources (such as the private companies involved in testing, as indicated above)?

If you're not interested in doing any of that:

"What's YOUR game?"

GSC
("Still Shoveling!")
P.S.: Reference Haim's http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=8054455
and http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=2335245 where he has had made some invidious and untenable claims against the OPMS:  it will take a little while (as I am also fairly busy otherwise); however I shall soon be responding regarding those claims of Haim's, in a special thread I shall create for the purpose - which I do hope would be passed by our Moderator.  The new thread will have some ideas (from US stakeholders) that would be useful to help improve US public education systems.

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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Bishop, Wayne-2
In reply to this post by Robert Hansen
I don't know anything about the validity or reliability of the test
but my guess is that real objection to the test (2 hours, 3 times
during the year) has more to do with "tied to merit pay" than anything else.

Wayne

At 08:25 AM 1/12/2013, Robert Hansen wrote:

>On Jan 12, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > http://bit.ly/XsO6wa
>
>
>Sounds like they don't like the MAP test. Understandable since this
>is yet another test on top of all the state mandated testing.
>
>I support them.
>
>Bob Hansen
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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Robert Hansen
Um, yeah, that teacher accountability thing is there, it is always going to be there, but can't we just put that aside for the moment? Nn top of all of the other testing, this is too much bloody testing. Even all that other testing is too much bloody testing. While you talk about "3 tests" during the year, the net result is not just "3 tests" during the year. Not only do these tests affect the focus of teacher (teaching to the test) there are also many "pretests" that spring up. For example, result of just one (NCLB) test a year is that the students are tested weekly, in reading, not quite as often in math, but quite often.

People misunderstand my support for standardized testing. We need authentic measures that are normed to what professional society expects of successful students in these subjects and not for the purpose of evaluating teachers. For the purpose of being HONEST to the students. As far as evaluating schools or teachers, my only use of those standardized tests is to determine if the schools or teachers are LYING to their students and passing them on to the next class when they are not ready.

As far as evaluating teachers, that has to be done by the principle, the administrators, and people in the context the teachers are in. The rest of the world does it that way and they share their ideas of doing it. That process, while not perfect, seems to work pretty damn well. And if teachers don't like that process because it is not perfect then too bad. It sure beats the heck out of the choices talked about lately, including their own choices.

Bob Hansen





On Jan 12, 2013, at 10:34 PM, Wayne Bishop <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't know anything about the validity or reliability of the test but my guess is that real objection to the test (2 hours, 3 times during the year) has more to do with "tied to merit pay" than anything else.
>
> Wayne
>
> At 08:25 AM 1/12/2013, Robert Hansen wrote:
>
>> On Jan 12, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > http://bit.ly/XsO6wa
>>
>>
>> Sounds like they don't like the MAP test. Understandable since this is yet another test on top of all the state mandated testing.
>>
>> I support them.
>>
>> Bob Hansen
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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Robert Hansen
That should have been "principal".

On Jan 13, 2013, at 12:24 AM, Robert Hansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

As far as evaluating teachers, that has to be done by the principle, the administrators, and people in the context the teachers are in.

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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Bishop, Wayne-2
In reply to this post by Robert Hansen
That may be but the evaluation of teachers at present is
meaningless.  Most expect, and get, superior ratings; the Lake
Wobegon situation.  And informing these assessors several times a
year with tests that measure improvement is critical.

Wayne

At 09:24 PM 1/12/2013, Robert Hansen wrote:

>Um, yeah, that teacher accountability thing is there, it is always
>going to be there, but can't we just put that aside for the moment?
>Nn top of all of the other testing, this is too much bloody testing.
>Even all that other testing is too much bloody testing. While you
>talk about "3 tests" during the year, the net result is not just "3
>tests" during the year. Not only do these tests affect the focus of
>teacher (teaching to the test) there are also many "pretests" that
>spring up. For example, result of just one (NCLB) test a year is
>that the students are tested weekly, in reading, not quite as often
>in math, but quite often.
>
>People misunderstand my support for standardized testing. We need
>authentic measures that are normed to what professional society
>expects of successful students in these subjects and not for the
>purpose of evaluating teachers. For the purpose of being HONEST to
>the students. As far as evaluating schools or teachers, my only use
>of those standardized tests is to determine if the schools or
>teachers are LYING to their students and passing them on to the next
>class when they are not ready.
>
>As far as evaluating teachers, that has to be done by the principle,
>the administrators, and people in the context the teachers are in.
>The rest of the world does it that way and they share their ideas of
>doing it. That process, while not perfect, seems to work pretty damn
>well. And if teachers don't like that process because it is not
>perfect then too bad. It sure beats the heck out of the choices
>talked about lately, including their own choices.
>
>Bob Hansen
>
>
>
>
>
>On Jan 12, 2013, at 10:34 PM, Wayne Bishop <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I don't know anything about the validity or reliability of the
> test but my guess is that real objection to the test (2 hours, 3
> times during the year) has more to do with "tied to merit pay" than
> anything else.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > At 08:25 AM 1/12/2013, Robert Hansen wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 12, 2013, at 9:00 AM, Michael Paul Goldenberg
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > http://bit.ly/XsO6wa
> >>
> >>
> >> Sounds like they don't like the MAP test. Understandable since
> this is yet another test on top of all the state mandated testing.
> >>
> >> I support them.
> >>
> >> Bob Hansen
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Re: Seattle Ballard High School teachers have followed suit: No MAP test!

Bishop, Wayne-2
In reply to this post by Robert Hansen
We knew and we knew you knew.  No need for the apology.

Wayne

At 08:00 AM 1/13/2013, Robert Hansen wrote:
That should have been "principal".

On Jan 13, 2013, at 12:24 AM, Robert Hansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

As far as evaluating teachers, that has to be done by the principle, the administrators, and people in the context the teachers are in.