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Vignettes

Haim-5
>From the thread
http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9796749
kirby urner Posted: Jun 14, 2015 3:20 PM

>> Maybe there is a argument to be made for
>> multicultural societies, but that argument MUST take
>> into account the fantastic risks involved, otherwise
>> it is no argument, at all.

>These debates usually fail to progress owing to
>deep-seated confusions about what we even mean
>by multicultural...
>
>Yet to this day I sometimes say "I'm an Asian
>in a gringo suit" -- because of Kijoon?

I understand.  People who can who see Bruce Jenner as a woman, a class that does not include Professor Paul McHugh and the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
will have no trouble seeing you as Asian.  

Though confusion does abound.  Eactly why Jenner is a woman and Rachel Dolezal is not black
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp/
but you, Kirby, are Asian, is an enduring mystery.

The mystery is especially deep because you, and the dearly departed Michael Paul Goldenberg, vigorously argued in this forum that there is no biological basis for race.  At the same time, no one denies the biology of sex.  And yet, it seems to be easier for Bruce Jenner to change his sex than Rachel Dolezal to change her race.  Very odd.

I have a hunch that the Yazidis, or what is left of them, suffer no similar confusion about race and ethnicity
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazidi-isis-iraq-religion-ethnicity-mountains

Haim
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Re: Vignettes

Bishop, Wayne
At 04:45 AM 6/16/2015, Haim wrote:

>I understand.  People who can who see Bruce Jenner as a woman, a
>class that does not include Professor Paul McHugh and the Johns
>Hopkins School of Medicine
>http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
>will have no trouble seeing you as Asian.
>
>Though confusion does abound.  Eactly why Jenner is a woman and
>Rachel Dolezal is not black
>http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/us/washington-rachel-dolezal-naacp/
>but you, Kirby, are Asian, is an enduring mystery.
>
>The mystery is especially deep because you, and the dearly departed
>Michael Paul Goldenberg, vigorously argued in this forum that there
>is no biological basis for race.  At the same time, no one denies
>the biology of sex.  And yet, it seems to be easier for Bruce Jenner
>to change his sex than Rachel Dolezal to change her race.  Very odd.
>
>I have a hunch that the Yazidis, or what is left of them, suffer no
>similar confusion about race and ethnicity
>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazidi-isis-iraq-religion-ethnicity-mountains

Beyond race and ethnicity I bet they can even tell male from female
as some of us used to be able to do.  Independent of Kirby, the
ridiculousness of this "modern" development has certainly been fun to watch.

Wayne
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Re: Vignettes

kirby urner-4
In reply to this post by Haim-5


I have a hunch that the Yazidis, or what is left of them, suffer no similar confusion about race and ethnicity
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazidi-isis-iraq-religion-ethnicity-mountains

Haim


Why not just accept that "Asian" has to do with one's legal nationality, which may be
changed.  Nothing whatsoever to do with genetics.  I may not "really" be Asian, but
if I changed my citizenship to North Korean, then I would be?

But no, people want to grab onto something genetic, as proof of something deeper
at work.  "The Oriental" is someone mysterious and inscrutable with slanty eyes
right?  As a gringo, I could never be one of those, at least not without an operation!

Speaking of vignettes, we have a punk bank in Portland, all Asians, that wants
to call itself "The Slants".  The judge says no, it's racially derogatory and there
are rule against that. [1]

Great job side-stepping the question "what is multicultural?"  I knew it was vacuous
nonsense, but I like to see proof.

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Re: Vignettes

Carleton Washburne
In reply to this post by Haim-5
Waaaaah! The world keeps changing, and we just get older. Why doesn't reality understand that things are supposed to stay exactly as they were when WE were kids? How dare the next generations make changes on what was clearly a perfect system, set of values and mores, social structure, etc?

Thus would have spoken the dinosaurs on their way to extinction, had they only bothered to evolve speech first.

> At 04:45 AM 6/16/2015, Haim wrote:
>
> >I understand.  People who can who see Bruce Jenner
> as a woman, a
> >class that does not include Professor Paul McHugh
> and the Johns
> >Hopkins School of Medicine
> >http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-s
> urgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
> >will have no trouble seeing you as Asian.
> >
> >Though confusion does abound.  Eactly why Jenner is
> a woman and
> >Rachel Dolezal is not black
> >http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/us/washington-rachel-do
> lezal-naacp/
> >but you, Kirby, are Asian, is an enduring mystery.
> >
> >The mystery is especially deep because you, and the
> dearly departed
> >Michael Paul Goldenberg, vigorously argued in this
> forum that there
> >is no biological basis for race.  At the same time,
> no one denies
> >the biology of sex.  And yet, it seems to be easier
> for Bruce Jenner
> >to change his sex than Rachel Dolezal to change her
> race.  Very odd.
> >
> >I have a hunch that the Yazidis, or what is left of
> them, suffer no
> >similar confusion about race and ethnicity
> >http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazi
> di-isis-iraq-religion-ethnicity-mountains
>
> Beyond race and ethnicity I bet they can even tell
> male from female
> as some of us used to be able to do.  Independent of
> Kirby, the
> ridiculousness of this "modern" development has
> certainly been fun to watch.
>
> Wayne
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Re: Vignettes

Dave L. Renfro
In reply to this post by Haim-5
Carleton Washburne wrote:

http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9797665

> Waaaaah! The world keeps changing, and we just get older.
> Why doesn't reality understand that things are supposed to
> stay exactly as they were when WE were kids? How dare the
> next generations make changes on what was clearly a perfect
> system, set of values and mores, social structure, etc?

Those into science fiction might recall that John Varley has
been treading pretty deep into gender identity issues the past
few decades.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22John+Varley%22+gender

Dave L. Renfro
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Re: Vignettes

Carleton Washburne
In reply to this post by Haim-5
And then there's Samuel R. Delany, who's been exploring that ground for half a century or so. Probably not the first in the Scifi-Fantasy world to do so. For a contemporary, quite powerful writer in those genres who just finished a trilogy very much worth reading that has a gay warrior hero, check Richard K. Morgan. Unlike Delany, Morgan is straight and white. Of course, I wouldn't recommend either of them to those who are simply too insecure in their own identities to stray outside the straight & narrow, in every sense of that phrase. The image of exploding skulls is disturbing though I believe there may be a related Desmos project worth exploring. . .
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Re: Vignettes

Haim-5
In reply to this post by Haim-5
Dave L. Renfro Posted: Jun 16, 2015 2:55 PM
>Those into science fiction might recall that John Varley
>has been treading pretty deep into gender identity
>issues the past few decades.

Dave,

   Funny you should mention science fiction.  Years ago, Isaac Asimov explained that good science fiction has to be good science and good fiction.

   For a long time, I have thought about education theory as bad social science fiction.  Most of it is certainly fictitious (some might say "fraudulent") and it is based on bad social science.

Haim
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Re: Vignettes

Haim-5
In reply to this post by Haim-5
Bishop, Wayne Posted: Jun 16, 2015 9:51 AM
>> I have a hunch that the Yazidis, or what is left of
>> them, suffer no similar confusion about race and
>> ethnicity
>>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazidi-isis-iraq-religion-ethnicity-mountains

>Beyond race and ethnicity I bet they can even tell
>male from female as some of us used to be able to do.  
>Independent of Kirby, the ridiculousness of this
>"modern" development has certainly been fun to watch.

Too true.  It's just agonizing (and hilarious) watching the leftists contort themselves around the issue of Rachel Dolezal.  

This morning, Brian Lehrer
http://www.wnyc.org/story/can-you-feel-black/#commentlist
addressed the issue, and the inevitable comparison was made to transgender.  The episode was just pitiful.  Lehrer is a pretty smart guy for a leftist but, as a leftist, he was duty-bound to remain completely respectful of flatly incoherent arguments, that did not even rise to the level of absurdity, about the differences between transgender and transrace, and why one is acceptable and the other not.

If these are the people in charge of our society, no wonder we are going extinct.

Haim
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Re: Vignettes

Bishop, Wayne
We all know the meaningless mantra, "There is no race of the human
race," but I seem to be having trouble formulating the gender analog.  Help?

Wayne

At 08:12 PM 6/16/2015, Haim wrote:

>Bishop, Wayne Posted: Jun 16, 2015 9:51 AM
> >> I have a hunch that the Yazidis, or what is left of
> >> them, suffer no similar confusion about race and
> >> ethnicity
> >>http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/07/who-yazidi-isis-iraq- 
> religion-ethnicity-mountains
>
> >Beyond race and ethnicity I bet they can even tell
> >male from female as some of us used to be able to do.
> >Independent of Kirby, the ridiculousness of this
> >"modern" development has certainly been fun to watch.
>
>Too true.  It's just agonizing (and hilarious) watching the leftists
>contort themselves around the issue of Rachel Dolezal.
>
>This morning, Brian Lehrer
>http://www.wnyc.org/story/can-you-feel-black/#commentlist
>addressed the issue, and the inevitable comparison was made to
>transgender.  The episode was just pitiful.  Lehrer is a pretty
>smart guy for a leftist but, as a leftist, he was duty-bound to
>remain completely respectful of flatly incoherent arguments, that
>did not even rise to the level of absurdity, about the differences
>between transgender and transrace, and why one is acceptable and the other not.
>
>If these are the people in charge of our society, no wonder we are
>going extinct.
>
>Haim
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Re: Vignettes

kirby urner-4
In reply to this post by Haim-5

If these are the people in charge of our society, no wonder we are going extinct.

Haim

I think the premise of most leftists almost by definition in the US at least is they are *not* the people in charge of our society.

"Geek" and "Left" are different labels though, with me more in the former camp, though I'll measure as "leftist" on many an EQ test.

However, I bet I could score high on a few righty measures as well.  Real people do not always pigeon-hole easily.

A dear yoga teacher I know adores Kurt Vonnegut and Ayn Rand as among her favorite writers, plus we both like Dr. Seuss, an anti-Hitler propagandist as well as children's book author.

I think of Ayn as harmless but maybe not someone to hang "Objectivism" on (too heavy a word perhaps, better recycled for other schools, probably relating to OO which Ayn was unfamiliar).

On the lefty scale, one credential would be:  I was logistics supervisor for Food Not Bombs at the time of Occupy (called OPDX) in Portland, and was therefore integral within the supply chain.  FNB is considered anarchist, and I'd vouch for that, though SE Chapter (Portland) is also a fairly tight ship, with almost two decades of service and multiple weekly servings.  That takes a lot of collaboration.  We just don't do minions.

But is such activism a "leftist" thing?  We should remember how conservative religious sects often endorse and engage in various genres of social activism, missionary work chief among them. 

An interesting confrontation with a local Baptist congregation, worried about our then bi-weekly servings in the park vis-a-vis their neighborhood land values, ended in their appreciating the irony of trying to shut down "helping the poor" in so blatant a fashion.  Why would good Christians interfere with FNB, even if our local management includes lots of Buddhists?

My particular brand of Quaker, though, frowns on proselytizing (missionary work), which helps us stay small and esoteric (NPYM.org).  But was George Fox a leftist?  I suppose if push comes to shove, he was, if we define "left" as anti-establishment "pro change" and "right" as like the Anglican Church of that day, a state religion.

Quakerism, lets recall, after a period of persecution, later became respectable and trusted, and boosted the UK-based industrial revolution in the backbone sectors of steel and rail, not to mention shipping. [1]  The US Navy's first fleet owes a lot to a Quaker shipwright. 

The idea of a "company town" with worker families treated well, as co-owners of the company (in spirit of not on paper) was what Quakers were pioneering, what George Bernard Shaw satirized in ' Major Barbara ', later a movie. [2] 

That all sounds very "business class" and therefore "righty" to me.

I'm thinking the "left versus right" spectrum may be too much a dumbing down, too one dimensional?  A lot of people have thought that.  I've identified as "radical middle" in some blog posts.  You'll find books on that topic.

Regarding transgender and race, geeks think mostly in terms of access, privilege and permissions, relating to ownership. If part of your user profile is gender and if that's used by an OS in any way to either limit or boost access, then said OS (operating system) is "gender aware".  Ditto "race".

Within Quakers, I'd say our trend is towards simply dropping trying to track either gender or ethnicity, recognizing both are best treated as "essay questions" versus "check boxes" and if we're not doing essays then it can wait.

Some information is considered "personal".  Gender and ethnicity are falling under HIPPAA as medical questions, not needed for printing name tags.

On the other hand, NPYM Quakers have been sensitive to the need for name tags that don't use "Roman letters" e.g. our visitors may have never had a need for an "Anglicized name" e.g. a name in anything by Cyrillic letters or Chinese characters.  Yet our name tag people still need to alphabetize for retrieval purposes. 

The solution is to phoneticize in ASCII (lets call it) but then only laser or inkjet print the Unicode (Devanagari or whatever) if that's what the bearer prefers.  We don't insist that Roman letters be used by the wearer.  A name is a personal item and forcing it out of its native script into something alien is potentially unfriendly and unwelcoming.

Unicode is a STEM topic, like the metric system, like weights and measures.  It's a standard, a protocol. 

We geeks also encourage early spiraling into TCP / IP (how it works) pretty early.


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Re: Vignettes

kirby urner-4
In reply to this post by Bishop, Wayne
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Wayne Bishop <[hidden email]> wrote:
We all know the meaningless mantra, "There is no race of the human race," but I seem to be having trouble formulating the gender analog.  Help?

Wayne


I don't think that' such a meaningless mantra.  It's a good counter to the racist belief in races.

Anthropologists have done a lot of thinking about "race" and so STEAM (STEM + Anthropology) is how to accommodate these debates.

The analogy I'm seeing in my twitter feed is around this word "passing".

When we say X is "really Z" but is "passing as Q", that's a pattern applied in both race and gender language games.

Women disguised as men, men as women, blacks as whites, whites as blacks....  the idea of "getting away with something" is embedded.

We have that with nationalism too.  Ministers in Afghanistan have dual citizenship, some of the, likewise in the Ukraine.

We can say "he is able to pass as Ukrainian" or "she is able to pass as Afghan" given the record-keeping involved.

Religious denominations:  same thing.  The idea of authenticity is in the mix.  "She's passing herself off as Quaker" etc.

Being able to pass as a mathematician:  something the snobby get all gate-keepery about e.g. the Bridges conference.

Are mathematicians a race or nationality?  There's some indication of ethnicity, and we used to think of mostly males.

Kirby


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Re: Vignettes

Haim-5
In reply to this post by Haim-5
kirby urner Posted: Jun 17, 2015 12:02 PM
>I think the premise of most leftists almost by
>definition, in the US at least, is they are *not* the
>people in charge of our society.

That's a 20th century concept that needs some revision in the 21st.

Historically, the central organizing principle of socialism is public ownership of the means of production, sometimes expressed in the negative, if less precisely, as "No Private Property".  Given the stupendous and bloody failures of socialism in the 20th century, and its richly earned infamy and discredit, socialists have backed away from this central demand.

Their 21st century tactic is:  if you can't own it, regulate it.  The socialists have discovered that ownership is not all that important, after all if, instead, you can control what is done with property.  If you can dictate whom to hire and whom to fire, and working conditions, and pay scales.  If you can dictate what can and cannot be produced, what can and cannot be built, etc., then you have pretty much achieved your aims.

The tactic of regulate instead of expropriate has the added advantage, for the socialists, of plausible deniability.  When the merde hits the propeller, as it inevitably does under a socialist system of production
(Venezuela, the top oil exporting country in the Western hemisphere, is now suffering energy shortages
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-32506572),
they can look wide-eyed into the camera and say, "Who?  Me?  We don't own that stuff.  We are not responsible."

So yea, with the cancerous growth in government these last 30 years, they really are in charge.  And we are paying a high and rising price for that.  Important as it is, a collapsed public school system is only one symptom of socialist control.

Haim

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Re: Vignettes

Bishop, Wayne
In reply to this post by kirby urner-4
Various shades makes categorizations silly, of course, especially if it invokes the one drop rule but so is denying the concept.  Acting on it is racism, recognizing it is not.  Kinda cute… In regard to the one drop rule, sometimes it's great for Casino Americans - enough for having a stake in an "Indian" casino. 

Wayne

At 09:15 AM 6/17/2015, kirby urner wrote:
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 7:52 AM, Wayne Bishop <[hidden email]> wrote:
We all know the meaningless mantra, "There is no race BUT the human race," but I seem to be having trouble formulating the gender analog.  Help?

Wayne


I don't think that' such a meaningless mantra.  It's a good counter to the racist belief in races.

Anthropologists have done a lot of thinking about "race" and so STEAM (STEM + Anthropology) is how to accommodate these debates.

The analogy I'm seeing in my twitter feed is around this word "passing".

When we say X is "really Z" but is "passing as Q", that's a pattern applied in both race and gender language games.

Women disguised as men, men as women, blacks as whites, whites as blacks....  the idea of "getting away with something" is embedded.

We have that with nationalism too.  Ministers in Afghanistan have dual citizenship, some of the, likewise in the Ukraine.

We can say "he is able to pass as Ukrainian" or "she is able to pass as Afghan" given the record-keeping involved.

Religious denominations:  same thing.  The idea of authenticity is in the mix.  "She's passing herself off as Quaker" etc.

Being able to pass as a mathematician:  something the snobby get all gate-keepery about e.g. the Bridges conference.

Are mathematicians a race or nationality?  There's some indication of ethnicity, and we used to think of mostly males.

Kirby

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Re: Vignettes

kirby urner-4
In reply to this post by Haim-5


On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Haim <[hidden email]> wrote:

<< SNIP >>
 
So yea, with the cancerous growth in government these last 30 years, they really are in charge.  And we are paying a high and rising price for that.  Important as it is, a collapsed public school system is only one symptom of socialist control.

Haim


Leftists fear cancerous growth in government too though, imagining some Business Plot alliance [1] twixt a Capitalist Cabal and their allies in the mushy swamps of so-called government, more a switchboard and networking salon for insiders (if you can only find the right "party").

Fascism, as much as Socialism (which some conflate) is also appealing to the so-called 1% in the eyes of the Left.

The enemy is always the same:  a mindless Borg or rather, individuals as mindless, as brainwashed into believing X against their best interests Y.  Totalitarianism is unappealing to everyone and it's always "those other people" who've fallen prey to it and seem to march in unison to some inner Big Brother.

But of course it's more complicated in that where one stands has a lot to do with where one sits.  Ideologies do not exist in isolation but in complement and tension, the discipline of Systematic Ideology -- admittedly of socialist origins -- having declared itself the study of same. [2]

Worker Joe has an under minimum wage job depending on tips, locked out of higher paying jobs thanks to a criminal record (an offense that today would have been legal). 

Jill's family, managed by her son, has a factory with competition from Mexico, with payroll to meet, regulations to satisfy.

Joe goes to May 1 marches and holds a sign saying $15 Now.  Jill donates to campaigns on advice of her son's board.

I'm not seeing anyone in control here and rather posit a stochastic computation way beyond the comprehension of any human being.

Ultimately I trust physics more than the vanishing thoughts of the human imagination and its flickering projections.  Politics is foreground melodrama, in contrast to deeper mega-trends, of which population and global temperature curves are but among the most cited.

Although I'll listen and follow political language and take part in debates, it's not STEM enough, not vested enough in engineering, to really come across as believable or credible on its own.

I enjoy discussions of infrastructure though e.g. how LA gets its water.  My head was deep into the Mulholland chapter and STEM around dams for some of the weekend.  Electrical grids.... fascinating stuff.  There's anthropology here too.

Fuller's claim was that the eigenvectors of change trace mostly to engineering and its artifacts e.g. the smartphone is making more of a difference than Hamas or the Vatican.

However the direction of these changes is not obviously ideological, so our movements as a species are not that accurately chronicled in ideologically driven texts.  Those aren't the only narratives though.  Engineers have their own stories to tell, about the great innovations and ensuing "change tsunamis".  Burke with his 'Connections' and 'The Day the Universe Changed' is more in the ballpark.  'Big History' was also interesting. [3]

Fuller sensibly follows the vector of maritime technology, inventions in aerospace in reverse, when riding the snake back to some pre-historic mythical tableau, always amenable to future updating. 

The launching of a new satellite constellation by Airbus is more interesting to the angels than anything going on in the Middle East (yeah, go ahead, call me biased -- and besides the Middle East has already been transformed by television, as was Europe, part of the ongoing terraforming project).

Kirby

[1]   https://youtu.be/3-a5QPUkKiM

[2]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_ideology

[3]  http://isepp.org/  (Burke a speaker for this lecture series, me on the board for a period of some years, caught a lot of these great talks)



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Re: Vignettes

Haim-5
In reply to this post by Haim-5
kirby urner Posted: Jun 17, 2015 11:54 PM
>Leftists fear cancerous growth in government too though,
>imagining some Business Plot alliance [1] twixt a
>Capitalist Cabal and their allies in the mushy swamps of
>so-called government, more a switchboard and networking
>salon for insiders (if you can only find the right
>"party").

You are confusing socialism with anarchism.  Your confusion is understandable.  We know from previous discussions that you are unclear about the concept of socialism, and socialists and anarchists do share a common cause in their antipathy to the modern, capitalist state, but the similarity ends there.  

Furthermore, for a man trained in philosophy you are remarkably careless of words, especially definitions.  And, carelessness with definitions shocks the mathematical conscience of this forum since one of the definitions (my favorite) of mathematics is:  The art of careful definitions and necessary consequences.  (Yes, yes, I get it.  It is one of the great intellectual ironies that the art of careful definitions and necessary consequences is, itself, embarrassingly difficult to define.)

>Fascism, as much as Socialism (which some conflate) is
>also appealing to the so-called 1% in the eyes of the
>Left.

I do not blame you for your confusion over socialism and fascism, since this confusion is widespread.  Well, I blame you a little.  I expect a man of your intellectual background to do some reading on a subject before he comments upon it.

As for their appeal to the 1%, that is always how it has been and how it is.  Socialism, fascism, islamism---ideologies are the afflictions of people who trade in ideas.

For all his championing of the Common Man, Karl Marx never, ever, got shop floor dust on his shoes or grease under his fingernails. And, although Adolph Hitler did start as a rabble-rouser, he quickly found wide support among university faculties---not least because just as many were sympathetic to National Socialism (that is what "Nazi" means) as to international socialism (aka, communism).  Nobody can confuse either of these men, or Friedrich Engels (a textiles magnate), or Vladimir Ulyanov (aka, Lenin, a trained lawyer and a minor tsarist aristocrat who always insisted on his proper honorific, even after the revolution), or Ioseb Jugashvili (aka, Stalin, a seminary student)---with the 99%.

  Kind of brings into the question the nature and value of "higher" education, no?

Haim
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Re: Vignettes

Louis Talman
On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 06:58:23 -0600, Haim <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kind of brings into the question the nature and value of "higher"  
> education, no?

Of course, you'd prefer a "higher education" that indocrinates people with  
your own ideas.

Your observation falls into the category called "Blaming the Vehicle for  
the Driver's Destination."

But that's nothing new in this forum.

- --
- --Louis A. Talman
   Department of Mathematical and Computer Sciences
   Metropolitan State University of Denver

   <http://rowdy.msudenver.edu/~talmanl>
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Re: Vignettes

kirby urner-4
In reply to this post by Haim-5
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 5:58 AM, Haim <[hidden email]> wrote:
kirby urner Posted: Jun 17, 2015 11:54 PM
>Leftists fear cancerous growth in government too though,
>imagining some Business Plot alliance [1] twixt a
>Capitalist Cabal and their allies in the mushy swamps of
>so-called government, more a switchboard and networking
>salon for insiders (if you can only find the right
>"party").

You are confusing socialism with anarchism.  Your confusion is understandable.  We know from previous discussions that you are unclear about the concept of socialism, and socialists and anarchists do share a common cause in their antipathy to the modern, capitalist state, but the similarity ends there.


For my part, I'd say you're confusing Leftist with Socialist.  The former term is far more inclusive and if anarchists are among them, then that makes me the more accurate user of the term, as I'm using it in consonance with its wider more catholic meaning.

The National Socialists of Germany were allied with Mussolini against those in favor of worker-owned co-ops in a Spanish context.  Their bombing campaign, in cahoots with Franco, was against Leftists (workers rising up in solidarity against oligarchy and plutocracy).

This was the Spanish uprising, a precursor to WW2, and a conflict Hemingway was so earnest about that he went there to help make a movie, later shown to the Roosevelts in the White House, about the advance of Fascism against heroic working class / peasant types.

http://www.openculture.com/2012/06/ithe_spanish_earthi_written_and_narrated_by_ernest_hemingway.html

This is somewhat how Leftists saw Nixon's bombing of agrarian democrats led by Jeffersonian Democrat Ho Chi Min, US ally against Japanese Fascism in WW2.  Nixon-Kissinger was the next Mussolini per the leftist narrative, Vietnam the next Spain.

FDR socialists -- later followed by Pentagon socialists of Cold Warrior fame, the military being inherently socialist, i.e. aircraft carriers and nuclear subs are owned "of and by the people" who get to pay for such Iron Mountain toys, lucky them -- considered themselves anti-Fascist during WW2, as you may recall. 

The Dulles brothers were part of a 180 degree turn whereby Japan and Germany became the main allies, against the former allies, Russia (against Germany) and Vietnam (against Japan).  That's when the Cold War started and a lot of Nazis found new employment in ICBM World.

Leftists today tend to embrace FDR over Mussolini as I'm sure you know.  I can't speak for all brands of Socialist (e.g. Nazi).

 

Furthermore, for a man trained in philosophy you are remarkably careless of words, especially definitions.  And, carelessness with definitions shocks the mathematical conscience of this forum since one of the definitions (my favorite) of mathematics is:  The art of careful definitions and necessary consequences.  (Yes, yes, I get it.  It is one of the great intellectual ironies that the art of careful definitions and necessary consequences is, itself, embarrassingly difficult to define.)

Oh blah blah.  You don't speak for the conscience of this forum any more than any plebe. 

You're trying to pull a fast one here, as some kind of patronizing arbiter of conscience.  Nice try.

 

>Fascism, as much as Socialism (which some conflate) is
>also appealing to the so-called 1% in the eyes of the
>Left.

I do not blame you for your confusion over socialism and fascism, since this confusion is widespread.  Well, I blame you a little.  I expect a man of your intellectual background to do some reading on a subject before he comments upon it.

As I was remarking above (previous post), I consider most political talk semi-vacuous and mostly for smaller minds in need of such messy sandboxes (or they just don't know any better?  Poor education?). 

That I might appear careless in my definitions is perhaps only an expression of the contempt in which I hold such namespaces?

No engineering integrity.  Mostly blather.  STEAM is better. 

I always preferred Jung and Wittgenstein to Marx and Adorno. 

Give me Lacan over Lenin any day, Ernest Becker (Denial of Death -- Woody Allen liked it too) over Engels.
 

As for their appeal to the 1%, that is always how it has been and how it is.  Socialism, fascism, islamism---ideologies are the afflictions of people who trade in ideas.


As opposed to what?  Copper?  Opium?

You define "ideologist" as "idea trafficker"?   So who are the not-ideologists again? 

Ideation would seem a somewhat inescapable feature of being human don't you think?



For all his championing of the Common Man, Karl Marx never, ever, got shop floor dust on his shoes or grease under his fingernails. And, although Adolph Hitler did start as a rabble-rouser, he quickly found wide support among university faculties---not least because just as many were sympathetic to National Socialism (that is what "Nazi" means) as to international socialism (aka, communism).  Nobody can confuse either of these men, or Friedrich Engels (a textiles magnate), or Vladimir Ulyanov (aka, Lenin, a trained lawyer and a minor tsarist aristocrat who always insisted on his proper honorific, even after the revolution), or Ioseb Jugashvili (aka, Stalin, a seminary student)---with the 99%.


All of fast fading relevance.  Marx was a thinker for the 1900s to care a lot about.  This is 2015. 

The ideologies have all moved on. 

Trying to grasp the world and its machinations in 1900s terms is akin to drooling in one's soup.
 

  Kind of brings into the question the nature and value of "higher" education, no?

I don't think so.  At least I'm not stuck in some time warp and I credit my superior education for that in some degree.

I'm still looking for evidence you've adapted to the newer millennium.

Kirby

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Re: Vignettes

Haim-5
In reply to this post by Haim-5
Louis Talman Posted: Jun 18, 2015 1:14 PM
>Of course, you'd prefer a "higher education" that
>indocrinates people with your own ideas.

See, the funny thing is I had this quaint notion that higher education was not about indoctrination at all.  Quite to the contrary.  And yet, all we seem to be getting these days are speech codes and trigger warnings and micro aggressions and a whole lotta anti-semitism and socialism.

Lou, is that the kind of higher education you have in mind?

Haim
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Re: Vignettes

Louis Talman
On Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:55:42 -0600, Haim <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ee, the funny thing is I had this quaint notion that higher education  
> was not about indoctrination at all.

I certainly hold that idea.  But, while you're proud to express the  
notion, the content of your posts suggests that you don't really believe  
it.

- --Louis A. Talman
   Department of Mathematical and Computer Sciences
   Metropolitan State University of Denver

   <http://rowdy.msudenver.edu/~talmanl>
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Re: Vignettes

Bishop, Wayne
In reply to this post by Haim-5
Have you picked up on Amherst College's guilty even after proven
innocent among charges of male on female (apparently these
retrogrades still perceive a difference) rape?
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/day-3-megyn-kelly-still-hammering-amherst-over-mishandling-of-campus-sexual-assault-accusation/article/2566543

Wayne

At 11:55 AM 6/18/2015, Haim wrote:

>Louis Talman Posted: Jun 18, 2015 1:14 PM
> >Of course, you'd prefer a "higher education" that
> >indocrinates people with your own ideas.
>
>See, the funny thing is I had this quaint notion that higher
>education was not about indoctrination at all.  Quite to the
>contrary.  And yet, all we seem to be getting these days are speech
>codes and trigger warnings and micro aggressions and a whole lotta
>anti-semitism and socialism.
>
>Lou, is that the kind of higher education you have in mind?
>
>Haim
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